Counter-Counter-Revolution | Guest: Matt Kibbe

Counter-Counter-Revolution | Guest: Matt Kibbe

– The moment we’ve all been waiting for, a dry run of the new Kibbe on Liberty has somehow nefariously leaked from the Kibbe on Liberty studios. And we’re going to beat the bootleggers. We releasing this thing, flaws and all, it’s crazy, there’s cats, there’s whiskey, but you know what? That’s the ethos. The counter-counter-revolution,
Kibbe on Liberty. Check it out. (heavy metal music) So, Jordan Peterson says, “If
you see a cat, pet a cat.” – Really? – We’re going to go one further. And we’re going to have a
cat around us at all times because it’s going to
make our lives bigger and better and richer. Am I quoting Jordan
Peterson correctly here? – Is he a big cat guy? – Nah, he just thinks that– Jordan Peterson has a very
dark sense of the world. – Yeah. And he thinks that the one thing that makes the world
better is petting a cat. – Well.
– And he’s not wrong. – Well the thing that I have learned from now having a cat in the house is that if they let you pet them, take advantage of it because usually they don’t want you to. – Well, they believe
– Well, not yours. – they believe in the
non-aggression principle. You need to really get their permission before you start touching them. – Well, I think my dog’s
like a cat in that way. You’re not supposed to pet her unless she’s really okay with it. How’s the cat tail on a mic? – How does that sound, Logan? Whew. – [Logan] Much better at staying
on mic than you are so far. – Yeah. – Yeah. Well, Roark’s been in the way. – We’re practicing here. This is all for practice. – Little dead air here.
– We can fail. What are we practicing for? – So, this is the loyal
viewers of Kibbe on Liberty have been watching me, sorta hit my head. I’ve got a lot of comments, by the way, on the hitting my head on
the stairwell coming up here. The is the new Kibbe on Liberty studio, which happens to be in a carriage house, built around 1860, 1870. About the time, that. No, don’t do that. That’s sharp dude. About the time that
Washington burned down, I guess, I guess it would have
been part of the Civil War. I don’t remember anymore. And this house is standing and we cleared out all,
almost of the garbage. There’s still a bunch behind us here. And behind all this garbage is a fairly beautiful old brick structure, which is now the new studio. – Yeah, it looks great. We’re not done yet. – Yeah. – Right? We’re going to do some more stuff, but we’re getting ready for Season 2. – There’s still a lot of dust on the floor and you know, Roark is still trying to figure out what role he’s going to play in this show. But and I talked about this a little bit, but I think the future of
social media is less screechy. It’s less rage bait and
it’s more for people, particularly young people that are trying to figure out how shit actually works. And they have this
beautiful array of tools, where they can find books. They can find YouTube videos. And we’re going to try
to help fill that gap. So, that if you want to
have an adult conversation about something, even something that might make you uncomfortable like immigration – Ooh, that’s dangerous. – There’ll be no screaming unless we’re screaming to get a second whiskey. And I should point out that
this is a drinking set, so. – Well, it’s not a dry
set, that’s for sure. – Well, there’s going to be, there’s going to be jello-shots for our friends like Senator Mike Lee. – Correct. – You don’t have to
drink to be on this set. And we won’t judge you if
you don’t want to, but. – We’re all about free choices here. – This, by the way, I brought back from the People’s Republic of Vermont. So, I should be up on the mic, right? – [Logan] Yeah. – Yeah. – So, one of the things
we’re learning how to do right now in the podcast
world is stay on mics. – Got to stay on the mic. – Cheers.
– Cheers. Oh, that’s good. You know, this is actually
what I had texted you, when I was in the liquor store buying whiskey for my dad for Christmas and I said, “What’s a good one?” And this is the exact bottle that I think that you told me. It’s the same brand. That you told me to buy – Yeah. – and I can confirm it’s good. – It’s a, I mean this one’s actually grown and distilled in
Vermont and aged in Vermont. Some of the earlier bottlings of WhistlePig were imported. You’re proving that our
table still wobbles, Buddy. So, in case, we’re
wondering whether or not Roark would participate on the new set. – Roark is into the new KoL. – God help us if we have a guest that hates cats ’cause we should probably screen them out ahead of time. – Yeah, we’ll just make sure
that they’re not allergic. – But WhistlePig was like,
I think the first generation of American sort of craft distillers outside of Kentucky and
Tennessee and traditional places. And they started because whiskey
takes a long time to make. They started by sourcing
whiskey from Indiana, like a lot of others have. So, this is real Vermont whiskey. And it’s high quality stuff. – It’s really good. Well, so, speaking of, getting
back to Kibbe on Liberty, Season 2, what are we going to do with it? I think we have a lot of
exciting stuff in mind, but what’s our plan? How do we want to get into that, that sort of discussion space? – Yeah, so we have, you know, we have this new mega platform called BlazeTV. And I’m really excited about my history with the Tea Party. I’ve always worked really
well with Glenn Beck and his crew and we did
some really cool things back in the day. – I remember a lot of those mega events. – I remember the mega event, where you were actually trying to make
the massive screen work, while standing on stage and Glenn was sort of
like making fun of you. – Yeah, it was the only
time that, you know, I think my grandma always
thought I was like a super liberal. She was a big Beck fan. And that was one of those times, where I took a picture with him backstage just to send it to her, just to be like, “Hey,
I’m safe. I’m okay now.” (Matt laughing) – So, even Grandma signed off on that. – Yeah. – Well, we have this platform and it’s an interesting time that goes back to the thesis of this show is like a lot of young
people are searching and a lot of people, I think are what I call, liberty curious. They want to find something different. You know, they don’t want
to be either of these two far-out there tribes
that are primarily defined about what they hate about the other guys. And they’re searching and social media and YouTube and Facebook and all these things have been great liberators in that sense. Like it gave people access to different types of stuff. You could find different books. You could find different videos. But of course, everybody knows about censorship on these
platforms, now and then. They don’t like, some of the things that we’re definitely
going to be talking about. So, the value of having
a platform like BlazeTV is that nobody gets to decide
what we talk about except us. It’s our platform and
it will be censor-free. All you got to do is agree
that the Constitution and the rule of law and human liberty are important things and you’re
going to be on the platform. And I’m going to be one
of the token libertarians. So, we’re going to be
using the L word here. And we’re going to say it loud and proud. And it’s going to be cool. And we’ll actually go
to the furthest reaches of crazy libertarianism. We might even let Logan express some of his insane views on liberty. – Careful. Careful.
– We’ll see. We’ll see. – He’s– – Maybe we’ll self-censor. (Matt laughing) – Well, speaking of some
of, well, we have whiskey, but one of the people that
we’d like to have on early on would be our friend, Denver Riggleman, who we made a fun documentary with. Which honestly, let’s be real, the documentary we made
was really about Christine. – Right, right, right. – But Denver, our friend, who just got elected into Congress, he’s going to definitely
be an early guest. And we’re going to have
a lot of really exciting characters coming in. – Yeah, I mean, we’re in
the belly of the beast. This studio is three blocks
from the Supreme Court. And that really awful noise, off set is in fact Roark, the cat. – Just in the trash. Kind of disappointed that we’re not paying attention to him. So, we’re, you know,
within walking distance of the House and the
Senate and the Capitol, which will give us an opportunity to get Congressman Riggleman on. Some of these liberty
guys, that we love so much, Mike Lee, Thomas Massie,
Rand Paul, Justin Amash. We might even expand it a little bit but I hope we don’t have
too many politicians because I don’t, most
politicians are not willing to speak the truth. They’re always on. They’re always messaging. And this is kind of going to
be a no bullshit zone, I hope. – Yeah, that’s true. Well, something that we haven’t done and I was hoping to do was, you know, since we’re starting with
a clean slate, new season, to talk about why you’re
in the liberty movement. Because I don’t think we’ve really tread through your history that frequently. So, I was thinking, how did
Matt Kibbe become Matt Kibbe? I mean, you started definitely
on a different path. – Well, first of all, I’m old. (Matt laughing) I’m a lot older than
almost anyone I work with. Probably anyone that watches this show. I’m not quite as old as Yoda, but I am old enough to remember a time before the internet
and before cell phones. If you wanted to find an idea, you had to go to this
thing called a library. People don’t even know
what those are anymore. Maybe we’ll have a show about that someday to explain how awful it was
to sort through the cards. – How did the Dewey Decimal System work? – Yeah, all that stuff. And I, I mean I discovered these ideas reading the liner notes on a Rush album. Even using the phrase, liner notes, I’m not sure people know what that is. But it’s the notes that came inside of the old vinyl rock albums. It’s cool again, I guess
to buy things on vinyl. And one of the things you used to do is read the liner notes when you put that vinyl disc on because you had to be near the phonograph, right? – Yeah. People don’t know what
phonographs are either. Because you had to flip it. – Uh huh. – And it was just three or
four songs on each side. And I was reading this
album liner notes from Rush. The album’s called 2112. And the album was dedicated
to the genius of Ayn Rand. I’m like, “Who’s that dude?” I’ve never heard of a dude named Ayn Rand. I’m 13 years old. I couldn’t possibly know who she was. But because she had a weird name, the name stuck with me and I was at a garage sale, a couple weeks, a couple months later, I don’t really remember and I found her old, tiny
little book called Anthem. Oh, that guy, Ayn Rand. Took it home and I just devoured it. And it set me on this course where I started seeking out her books and I then sought out other books by Austrian Economists
like Ludwig von Mises. I was so strange that
before I went to college, I had actually read The Wealth
of Nations by Adam Smith. – And that’s like, not light reading. – Not a light read and more importantly it’s perhaps the worst possible strategy for meeting girls in high school. They don’t care. – No. – What are you doing, Bud? (Matt laughing) – They don’t care about economics – And Roark clearly doesn’t
care about Adam Smith either. – No. – Or my property rights. So, you know, I did all
that and maybe it’s a good thing or a bad thing, but I became like a book dork
libertarian in high school. And that’s how I ended up here is because I, my buddy
at Grove City College told me to come to George Mason University to get my Ph.D. in
Economics at George Mason. George Mason in the Austrian program. I never finished my Ph.D.
because here we were in the belly of the beast and there were so many
opportunities to make. (Matt laughing) We’re going to have to
cut all of this out. Dude, will you sit down. – Well, this is what the show is. It’s actually about,
it’s about Roark the cat, – Yeah. – wandering into the set
and causing, oh there he is. Oh, there he is.
– Yeah. – Now he’s settled. – Yeah, we talked about this before. And this was what you were going to do. – It is kind of cold up here. – It is kind of cold. What, Buddy? Okay, are we good?
– Oh that’s cute. – Are we good?
– Look at that. – Don’t start bumping the mic. So, I’m reading all this stuff. I get to George Mason University and I always call Washington,
DC The Death Star. – Yeah. – There’s something about it. – Back then you couldn’t call it that because the movie hadn’t come out, right? – Well, that’s, nah, nah, nah. When did Star Wars come out? – [Logan] 1977. – So, we’re talking well
into the early 80s by now. – How long was your hair at the time? – So, I had a long pony tail. It was kind of like a
hardcore party mullet. – Uh huh. – When I got my first job in Washington. But you could tuck it under your collar. – Right. – So, you could party all night, but during the day, you look
like a regular Republican. I eventually cut that out for both practical and physical reasons. Now, it’d be called what’s
known as a fading glory. Right? Sort of a George Carlin mullet. – Yeah. – I don’t know. – Where you’re just holding
on to that last hope. – I don’t know if the wife
is going to sign off on that. But I got involved in policy and I don’t know if that was
a good idea or a bad idea, so I went from wanting to
be an Academic to working as Chief Economist at the
Republican National Committee, which was sort of for
me, an emotional sellout when I was 25 years old. – You still have the card, don’t you? – I still have proof that this happened. I worked at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce as their Budget Director. So, I’m sort of emptying
my closet right now, in case people want to attack
me for being a sellout. Worked on Capitol Hill and eventually I came around to starting
the organization, that you knew, FreedomWorks in 2004. But the idea was how do you get people to care about this stuff like the national debt and
civil asset forfeiture and government doing all of these things that sound so good but turn out so bad? How’s my mic? – [Logan] Sounds great. You sound like Darth Vader. – Can you hear Roark purring? – [Logan] No, I can’t hear Roark. – Let’s see if we can
get this into the shot. – Don’t like, this is expensive equipment. That means it’s fragile. – This is all of our new equipment. – We’re also testing that out. – Yeah, we’re seeing if this
is going to work out or not. – Yeah. I think it sounds pretty good so far. But, okay, so, you started,
FreedomWorks begins. Get into the, eventually becoming, turned from sort of academic
and policy into sort of into grassroots organizing
and I hate the word, I don’t want to use the word. You became almost a media
figure to some extent too, which was completely different from the sort of more
bookish end of your career. And how did that? Now you’re full-blown media figure. How did that happen? – So, when we were cleaning out this area, I found all of my boxes
from graduate school. And it reminded me of this evolution. When you’re in graduate school, you can write hard page
papers that sometimes have more footnotes than text. Because you’re carefully
documenting every claim that you make. And you’re citing people
and all that stuff. And I was the editor
of an academic journal called Market Process. And that was a outlet
that was really designed for dozens of people. If you really rocked it, you could get some important Academic
to say something nice about a paper you wrote. And somewhere I have
letters from three Academics that were heavily influential on me, a guy named G. L. S. Shackle, who is a radical Austrian
Economist with Keynesian leanings. A guy named Israel Kirzner, who is one of the fathers of Austrian understanding
of entrepreneurship. And even James Buchanan, who is the founding father of public choice. They all said nice things about my stuff and it was such a big deal back then. But then I published my first op-ed in the Wall Street Journal
a couple years later. And I did the math and I realized, do I want to be talking to a couple dozen Academics when I could
be talking to a mass audience? I don’t know what the
distribution of the Journal back then was but it was bigger than 12. Much bigger than 12. – So, let’s back up real quick. You mentioned two key words that I think come up frequently and I
know, we’ve defined them at some point but let’s define them again. So, you said Austrian
economics and you said Keynesian, – Uh huh. – which I always have a
tough time pronouncing. But what are those? – So, Austrian economics
is boiled to its essence, is the idea that the
market is this process, where human beings are acting purposefully in a world where they mostly don’t know most of the things that are going on. So, it’s not this rarefied
state of equilibrium that a lot of economists like to plan. It’s this discovery process where you’re trying to figure stuff out in real time. Go all the way back to the Scottish enlightenment and they talked about the wisdom of crowds and the
way people figure that out. Austrians apply that to
all of their economics, you know, particularly micro economics, economics about the individual because it’s silly to think that we as
individuals know everything. We don’t know everything that’s going on in the marketplace. And most economists make that assumption. The point of that, of the
whole process understanding is that without the process, you don’t get the knowledge. You don’t figure stuff out unless people are free to figure that out, which is why Austrians are
so libertarian inclined. That’s where they got their
critique of socialism, – Uh huh. – Because socialism replaced that process with somebody really smart and somebody with lots of power, redesigning things from the top down. The Keynesian approach was not micro. It wasn’t about the individual. It was macro. And John Maynard Keynes had this idea that you could manipulate human behavior and economic performance, basically by spending money you don’t have. And the Austrians were
very much a critic of that. There’s a great video of Hayek rapping, debating Keynes,
– Keynes, right. Classic video and he’s arguing basically that you can’t manipulate
individual behavior like this without all sorts
of unintended consequences. – Uh huh. – And Keynes is rapping,
it doesn’t matter. I’ll be dead by then. So, I don’t care. – Which is fair. – Just so you know, Keynes
inspired generations of politicians to do things that didn’t matter to them because they’ll be out of office by the time the shit hits the fan.
– They’ll be dead. – So, to make it about Star Wars because it, we’re in the Death Star. And you want to sound like Darth Vader but if Austrian economics is the light side of the force, which assumes that you know, sort of, it’s a free will, that kind of stuff. The dark side is all about controlling and making people act the
way that they want to. Is that sort of a–? – Yeah, there’s like the
George Mason tradition was two-fold and it affects everything that I think about everyday. And it’s a fairly useful way to sort of process information and
policy when you don’t really know what’s going on. And one was that, the Austrian idea that unless you let the
process work itself out, you don’t get at better knowledge, you don’t get a better understanding because that comes from free people, sharing their personal knowledge and discovering making mistakes, having successes and doing all that stuff that we know people do. The other half of the
George Mason tradition was another guy I
mentioned, James Buchanan. Can I be taken seriously
at all like this, really? – Yeah, you always have that. – I feel like Doctor Evil. (Matt laughing) Maybe we’ll shave Roark. – Yeah. – He probably wouldn’t like that. – He’d look really cool that way. – So, James Buchanan, who is oddly now this very controversial
figure on the left. There’s been some, just an
awful book written about him that from my personal experience, I know to be just completely nonfactual but anyway James Buchanan,
while I was in graduate school in 1986, won the Nobel Prize in Economics for this really, really deep insight. Politicians and bureaucrats are just as self interested as you and I are. – No way. – He won a Nobel Prize for that. And it was very controversial. But all of macro-economics,
you know the ways that government manipulates the economy to supposedly enhance economic growth starting with Keynes suspended this assumption in that politicians
were self-interested. And there was somehow this magical process by the time, the day you took office or the day that you took a government job, you’re going to put aside
your personal interests and just work in the public interest. Whatever that is. – You would be a servant
and that’s not true. – Whatever that is and
it just wasn’t true. So, Buchanan looked at
what I would characterize as government failure. The unintended consequences
of grandiose policies that make you do things,
try to make you do things that you wouldn’t do otherwise. There’s always unintended consequences. There’s always all sorts of things bad that can happen when you give the government that much power. And if you take it to its extreme and we’ve done lots of videos about this, you end up with someone like Pol Pot, who went from this sort
of quasi-idealized Marxist world into murdering one
in four of his country men in less than four years. That’s what happens when
you have too much power. That was the Buchanan side of things. So, if you look at any public policy, as does that guy know enough and is he actually good enough to get that much power? You pretty quickly get to a point where limiting power and
limiting exotic schemes to redesign the economy
are just common sense. – Okay, so, I want to talk about the Tea Party days a little bit. Because, well one, it’s when
I come into the picture, so, that’s really obvious. – That’s really the
beginning of this whole- – But two, I think that, you know, obviously with the BlazeTV and I think with our previous partnership with CRTV and just with FreedomWorks, you know, obviously there is a
history with the Tea Party. And I think that it’s important to sort of dissect that moment a bit. What do you think about
where it went and how it was? – So, the, and if you
don’t mind, I’ll go back to the whole story about, you know, I was talking about the first time I wrote for the Wall Street Journal, which was the moment I
decided not to be an Academic. And to try to translate
economics into plain English, to try to reach a broader audience. And you know eventually,
I would get to this organization called Citizens
for a Sound Economy, which in some ways was the
precursor to FreedomWorks. And the idea was always to
try to figure out a way, reading all of this leftist literature about community organizing. We were reading Alinsky, probably when Barack Obama
was still in high school. I’ll have to do the math on that. – He was smoking pot in high school. – Yeah. – Not that there’s anything wrong with that actually. – Yeah, when he was
going all Elon Musk and burning fatties and reading Saul Alinsky. And we were trying to figure out a way to get libertarian, classical liberal, constitutional conservative,
get these ideas about limited government
and make them popular and engaging as a social movement. Like how do you get people
to care about this stuff? ‘Cause the classic dilemma for limited government is that you don’t really have an incentive to show up, to keep regulations down, to keep marginal tax rates down, to keep spending down in particular because is it really
going to impact your life in a substantial way that justifies schlepping
all the way to Washington to march or meet a congressman
and all that stuff? And so, we’re trying to make it easier for that cadre of people to get together and to have an impact on the process. But you know, fast
forward to FreedomWorks, which I founded in 2004, it really didn’t happen until technology and easily accessible social
media type technology. Nothing like we have today, but – Right. – but stuff that actually worked. When that met the perfect
storm of the Tea Party, it wasn’t just a profound social movement. It fundamentally changed politics and the way that policy is
going to be made forever. And FreedomWorks was,
we actually did a little strategy paper looking
at the Boston Tea Party, as a purely strategically as a platform for communicating ideas to people that didn’t care that much. – Uh huh. – Because that’s what the Tea Party was, it was a carefully orchestrated event. That was specifically designed to reach that third of the public that John Adams always complained about that, the people in the middle. – Right. Squishing me in the middle. – So, you had, Roark is
going to want a heated seat next time we do this. – Yeah, we’re going to need to
triple up the space heaters. – And I always butcher the
quote but John Adams said, “The colonial public
around the time of 1774 was one third patriot, one third in the tank with the Tories, and one third gettable.” and that’s completely
butchering the quote, but he did say that
third, third, third thing. And the Boston Tea Party
was a public demonstration. It was a non-violent public demonstration of what the British Government was doing to people and their tea. And it wasn’t just about taxes. It’s about trade and all sorts of things. So, we were trying to
figure out a way to do that having studied Alinsky
and the Boston Tea Party and by accident, we, you
know, we happened to be there when the Tea Party started
to emerge spontaneously as a grassroots movement
empowered by technology. – Uh huh. So, I think the things that
interesting is that the Tea Party happened in that moment, you had Occupy Wall Street, which sort of existed but fizzled out, I think, relatively quickly. But I think we’ve now passed these moments of these sort of organized
political movements because everything is like
the word you like to use, it’s disintermediated. Everything is kind of spread out so much where you can’t, you can’t there’s sort of pockets everywhere. So, what are we doing now? And what changed from
those grassroots days? – So, you know the difference is that the Tea Party and the Ron Paul movement and Occupy Wall Street and even like the Women’s March. – Uh huh or Black Lives Matter. – Black Lives Matter. – Which now seems the
thing of the past almost. – But you know, the more
sustainable movements and I would argue, you know Ron Paul, the Ron Paul movement was sustainable but it was very dependent on Ron Paul. The Tea Party movement was sustainable even though there wasn’t a Ron Paul. And that’s because there
really was at least from the first four or five years, a set of values that held it together. Limited government, fiscal responsibility, and personal liberty,
you could walk into any Tea Party crowd and
they’d say the same thing. The problem that the left has, the problem with Occupy Wall Street is that there was this broad array of values and agendas that was
really just a collection of one thing they were pissed off about but they didn’t have a set of values that held them together. The Women’s March is
sort of disintegrating as we speak and it’s the same problem, everyone was there for a different reason, except they don’t like Donald Trump. That’s not enough. That does not sustain a social movement. But I think the reason
we’re doing what we’re doing right now and the reason we created Free the People together
is that this is not a cadre building exercise anymore. We’re not trying to find all of the people in America that share those three values of individual liberty,
fiscal responsibility, and limited government. We’re trying to reach almost everybody. Like social media allows you to do that and you can make it easier for people that would be interested
if they knew to find out. Because it is an extraordinarily expensive big ask to ask people to
drive across the country, and march on Washington. And if your goal is to get a lot of people to do that, you’re going to fail because normal people don’t do that. And I say that as abnormal person. I’m extremely abnormal. Normal people have
families and jobs and kids. And they go to the game on Sunday. And they probably go to
Bruce Springsteen concerts, if they have any sense at all. – Absolutely. – By the way, Terry’s
like, “Who’s the big man?” She did not know
– She did not know? – who the big man was. – Oh geez. Clarence Clemons. – Of course, I mean. – Of course. – Every person worth their
salt knows who the big man is. – Absolutely, R.I.P. – Yeah, do we need a moment? – Just a silence. – Are you gonna get emotional? – No, we’re not listening
to On Broadway soundtrack. So, actually since you
brought up The Boss, you know, he sort of
very vocally got upset about the border situation. He even added that, and I
disagree with this move, but he swapped in The
Ghost of Tom Joad and Long Time Coming into his
much acclaimed Broadway run in place of Long Walk
Home, which I thought is actually the best sort of political music piece, whatever. Anyways, the point is he
made a big stink about the whole, what’s going on at the border a while ago and there’s been a lot of press about it and I think that especially for people, right of center, you know, there is a
lot of confusion because there is a rule of law aspect to the sort of, immigration
crises, if you will. And then there’s also the question of, is a wall necessary? So, where do you come
down on the immigration on this massive debate
that’s happening right now? – I mean, it’s such a complicated debate and I think, I think at
least reasonable libertarians probably have some profoundly
important solutions. And we talked earlier about
unintended consequences, the first thing that you have to sort of figure out is what is the goal of border protection
and immigration policy? And if anybody listening here has the view that people
from other countries should never come to our country legally, I really don’t have much to offer you because I don’t agree with that. – Well, we’d be empty chairs. – Yeah, we’d be empty chairs
because, you know, because your grandparents came over
– I can reach back – in the boat. – one generation or two.
– Yeah. And mine did as well. And there are some people
on the left and the right who don’t want anyone
to come to our country. But I don’t have anything to say to them because I just disagree. And we would just have to fight over that as winners and losers. Everybody else seems to agree that the goal of border protection and immigration policy is to make sure that people who want to come here and work and follow the rules and
contribute to American society there should be a reasonable
way for them to do that. And if we agree on that principle and I’m not even talking
about citizenship, I’m talking potentially
about guest workers who could come here
and help with the crops help with construction, which is primarily where sort of migrant guest workers, illegal or legal tend to contribute here. If that’s something that we care about, but we don’t want bad guys in. We don’t want terrorists
to come to this country. We don’t want violent drug gangs running across the border
and killing people. Here ares some solutions and these are hardcore libertarian solutions. The first is to stop the drug war. The drug war and the
smuggling of illegal drugs and the gangs that illegal drug smuggling creates and the guns that they run, – Uh huh. – In order to protect
their illegal drug trade. This is a source of much of the violence and much of the problems, not only in the border but
in our country, as well. And libertarians don’t
believe in the drug war. We look at the unintended consequences. We look at the violence. We look at the kids that died because of things like black market fentanyl. And say, we can do better than that. And the way you do better is
you decriminalize everything. And that sounds crazy to people that wouldn’t think about this but we have an actual example that we have a real world example of a country, Portugal,
where in the 1990’s, they had literally people
dying in the streets because of heroin overdoses. It was a drug diseased hell hole and they decided to do
something radical in 2001. I don’t even know why
they decided to do it. But they decriminalized
everything in 2001. And if you look at the data today by any conceivable
measure, things got better. Now, they got radically better
and it happened quickly. The deaths stopped. They’re now the safest
in terms of drug deaths of any country in the European Union. Use of drugs went down, not up. And it was all because it was no longer a legal question, it was
a community question. It was a parental question. It was a doctor, patient question. And people that got in trouble could solve that problem but you also dried up the illegal market. You got rid of the gang leaders. You got rid of the adulterated products that would kill you if you took them. We should do that. Because not only would it be good policy and save a lot of people’s
lives in this country but it would get rid of the drug gangs. It would pull the rug
out from all of them. Not just on our side of the border, but in Mexico and Latin America, as well. – Well in those gangs have contributed to the destabilization of that whole area, which is why so many migrants
are coming up this way. Correct? – Yeah, it’s a, like you
look at a lot of things that President Trump talked about, the guns, the drugs,
the human trafficking, the infrastructure for all that stuff is because of the drug war. And if you take away the profit incentive, to do that stuff, it goes away. – I feel like the wall has become the sort of big shiny that everyone wants to argue about. But it seems like that’s
a more salient point that would actually solve the problem. The wall’s like a really big bandaid because the people will still
pile up at the wall, then. – Well, I mean, what a
wall does in practice is it probably makes it
more difficult at the margin for people to cross the border. – Uh huh. – It doesn’t make it impossible and hopefully everyone realizes that. They do drill tunnels. They do climb over top. By the way, they could
swim around the side. – There is water. – But it does make those
people that I talked about that want to come to this country. People that want to
come here and contribute and work and follow the rules, they might turn back. They might not come. But those gang leaders,
they’re going to find a way. I mean, you’ve seen the
pictures of the tunnels – You saw what El Chapo did. – Yeah, the solar panels and I’m sure there’s barcaloungers down there and all that stuff. The bad guys are going to get through. If you’re worried about terrorists, if you’re worried about gang leaders, they’re going to break the laws because that’s what they do by definition. But you could chase at the margin some people that you probably want to get to this country legally. And that’s the other half of this. Like if you’re worried
about controlling the flow of bad people across the border and the government always has limited resources to do that. Don’t you want border security to focus on stopping
a potential terrorist? The best way to do that is to make it legal and rational and predictable for guest workers to
come into this country to do work that needs to be done. – So, being the devil’s advocate here, generally people criticize libertarians and the whole mindset of like,
oh we shouldn’t have borders. You know, that borders themselves
by definition are wrong. I don’t think that that’s the principle that you’re laying out here. Correct? – No, I mean people that, libertarians talk about open borders and I don’t like that phrase because I think it means different
things to different people. It’s probably important to
be concise in your language. If by open borders, you
mean a predictable process by which people can be processed. Some people call it the
Ellis Island Process. – Uh huh. – Like, you don’t want criminals. You don’t want people with
the zombie apocalypse disease coming into your country. I think that’s a fairly reasonable thing and I think it’s consistent
with our Constitution and it’s also consistent with, whether libertarians like it or not, there are nations and
they do have borders. And we could probably debate
about borderless society once we get government
spending at a percentage of GDP below 25 percent. But I think that the
reasonable, classical, liberal, constitutional
conservative who wants good people to come to this country and help us grow our economy and all the
things that immigrant workers have done since the
beginning of this country. You got to have an honest way to do this. And the dirty secret about politics today is that I don’t think that, there are virtually no
democrats who talk about actually fixing the
process by which people can come here and work. – Yeah. – They’re more obsessed
with owning the votes of people once they get
here, and controlling the lives of the people who
are immigrants in this country. But I also think that
there’s a sort of subversive side of the GOP that doesn’t want anyone else to come to this country. By the way, it’s the Bernie
Sanders view, as well. – Right. – Bernie Sanders calls the Koch brothers, well that’s open borders, – Yeah. – And you know, as far as I
can tell the Koch brothers are just interested in figuring out a way to make the Dreamers legal. – Right. It seems like the problem is that the right seems to come at it from this very strict argument of security, which is a very broad net and we’ve seen the argument of security used to get us in eight different wars
and all this other stuff. Right? And the left seems to
take the approach of, we need to let everybody
in, type of thing. And they want to ignore the problem that’s been created by government, which is that there is the process of letting people in is such a quagmire. – Right. – That needs to be fixed
in order to actually fix the problem.
– You know, You know, the other thing,
and Ron Paul talks about this, and a lot of
conservatives talk about it, and Milton Freedman talked about it. You know, open borders are inconsistent with a large welfare state. I don’t think the data
supports that nearly as much as people claim. I think people that bust
their ass to get here are here to work, but that
would be controversial and there’s already somebody writing something nasty in the YouTube feed here, but if that is a concern, fixing our guest worker program, we’re not talking about citizenship, we’re talking about workers that come to this country and do
jobs that are available and unfilled by Americans. There is a process by which
you could do this rationally. And making sure that
they’re not legally eligible for all these government handouts. I think there’s a reasonable way to create some safeguards and I
do think there are some democrats that want them to
have access to all that stuff. – Uh huh. – Because all of these government programs are the way that they buy votes. – Right. – It’s just the way it is. – Well, I have sort of a
question on this front. Is part of this also
to figure out a pathway to citizenship for people?
Because I think, you know, something you read in the news is especially this is happening in Europe, with all of the migration
out of the Middle East and leaving Syria and all
this, is that they form basically form ghettos in
these European countries and there’s no pathway to naturalization. – Right. – And one of the things
that America can do that no other nation can
really do is that you can become an American. I feel like the sort of stigmatizing and quarantining people is changing that and, – You’re sounding more
libertarian than I am. – Well, but, – Even Logan’s agreeing with you there. – Well because I think
that that’s a big thing and one of the great
benefits of American society is that anyone can, with
enough time, can become – The melting pot. Which apparently is an offensive phrase particularly on the left now. – Really? – It’s fascinating to me and it gets into cultural appropriation. – Which is so confusing
because one of the, you know and I think that it’s a sad thing that gets lost in this,
sort of, social media age is the shared culture. I mean,
– Yeah. – Choice is great and it’s wonderful, but there’s almost, there
is that American culture that used to be that sort
of, maybe it was a myth. But there’s less of those things that bind us together. – I don’t think it was a myth. I think the melting pot
part was a big part of that. And I think the melting pot worked because everyone understood
that they had to work and participate and create communities and there’s all sorts of clashes that are documented in some pretty awesome movies. – Do you think it can work again? – Yeah, I think it can work again. And I think it should work again. And I think going back to your point, I remember the first
time I was on Bill Maher and I assume this video
still exist somewhere. They do this thing called
After Hour with Bill Maher, where it’s just a live stream thing. – Uh huh. – And we were talking about France and the haves and the have nots with France. I used that phrase like
there were two types of people in France and this is when all of the muslim kids were burning cars. – Right. And protesting. A long, long time ago compared before all of the horrible
shootings and stuff and I said, “Well, you
know why that happens? There’s two cultures in France. There’s the haves and the have nots.” And everybody started screaming at me because I was the Tea Party monster. I had no right to talk about the haves and the have nots. But in closed labor markets, where unions control everything, and France is a classic example of this. Sweden is like this. The immigrant kids have no
way of getting that first job, so, the unemployment, I don’t
know what it is in France, I bet you it’s over 50
percent for this demographic. They have no way to integrate. They have no way to
provide for their families. And eventually they get pissed off but it has everything to do
with closed labor markets and high minimum wages
and unions and this is why Bernie Sanders
doesn’t want immigrants, to come into the country.
– Right. – Because he thinks that
undermines the union positioning. He thinks, it’s impossible to impose 15 dollar an hour minimum wages if someone is coming in that’s willing to work for half of that. – Yeah. Well, you, it turned out
that you were completely correct and that have
and have not situation has played out in very violent ways. And I mean, France,
they’ve been going through more riots and protests lately too. – Right, but it goes back to economics and it goes back to regulation. I don’t think it’s about immigration. I don’t think it’s about stopping people from other countries to
come to those countries. Because there’s a reason
why the migration happens. Is that the populations, the quote, the native populations in places
like France are shrinking. People don’t have as many kids. And one of the reasons, they don’t have as many kids is because there is no mobility. There’s no job growth and
you wouldn’t want to do that. So, one of my buddies who
runs a little think tank in Sweden has proposed
abolishing the minimum wage as a way to allow new workers from other countries to get jobs. Because you know, they probably
don’t speak the language. They probably don’t have
a lot of job skills, but how are they going to get them? – Right. – You’re going to get them on the job. – You can’t expect people
to, if there’s no paths open. – Right. You can’t expect them to just
magically work things out. – But this is where
some people on the right and some people like
Bernie Sanders on the left can agree because they have this zero sum, even negative sum game
view that every job taken by an immigrant is one less job for us. That’s not how the economy works. – I don’t think that’s true. – Jobs and workers create
more opportunities. They create more wealth. They create more investment in technology and everybody wins. But if you can’t get a job, they become burdens on society. – So, let’s sum up immigration
and the wall and all this. So, the ideas are people need
to be able to become legal. At least get a worker permit or whatever. We need to end the drug
war and is that it? Are those the main two points? – I mean if we could
do one of those things, you would get rid of 99
percent of the illegal traffic on the border, which would free up border
security to focus on bad guys trying to get across
the border for bad purposes. There it is. – There. We solved it. – Yeah. Okay, wrap this up.
– Okay, that’s it. I am really cold. – I’m freezing my ass off. We need to go inside. So, well let’s just end with this. So, people can expect
to see Kibbe on Liberty, Season 2 pretty soon? – It’s imminent. – Yeah. – And if it doesn’t
happen, almost immediately I’m going to ask people to direct their angry comments at you. – Well, okay, let’s also tease out, we have some other fun stuff coming. It’s Season 2 of The Deadly Isms. We have some more stuff with beer. – Yeah, we’re going to do some beer stuff. – We’ve got a new show
with our friend, Denver, about his experiences as
a first year Congressman. – You don’t even know
this but Thomas Massie invited us back to the farm. – Oh good. – To see what else is going on there. – I need to get some more cattle. – Yeah. – Some beef. His stuff is real good. – Some beef. – And we’re going to be doing a project on restorative justice. – Yeah. And we promise, I’ll promise here, unlike the first season
of Kibbe on Liberty, we’ll come up with some really empowering closing statement. – Yeah. – So, you’ll know the show
actually ended but for now. Cheers. – We’ll come up with a tagline. – Cheers.
– Cheers. (heavy metal music) – Thanks for watching Kibbe on Liberty. Make sure you subscribe. You don’t want to miss a single episode. Click the bell, so that
you get notifications. Kibbe on Liberty, mostly
honest conversations with mostly interesting people.


  1. Mercedes says:

    Hairball coming soon

  2. Michael Lacey says:

    When is a blank page *damn*. Awesome show Matt; looking forward to the new season!

  3. ZipPtang says:

    Any chance of getting some Deadly Isms posters to coincide with The Deadly Isms – Season 2? I really liked that Left vs Right, bottom to top graphic from Season 1, episode 1.

  4. Pete Hamann says:

    Volume on this was killin me. Otherwise great show!

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *